Ep.17 — Genelec on Truthful Sound: Coaxial Drivers, Calibration & Aural ID Explainedenelec

Eric Horstmann from Genelec joins Behind the Rack in Montreal — recorded during Genelec's Immersive Audio World Tour — for a deep dive into what makes a speaker "truthful." We cover coaxial driver design, why Genelec calibrates every unit in an anechoic chamber, how the GLM software and autocal process work, and Genelec's new Aural ID binaural/HRTF technology for personalized headphone monitoring.

Topics include: what "neutral" sound really means, coaxial vs. traditional driver design, room calibration with GLM, calibration presets for different listening positions, the 9320 monitor controller, Aural ID pricing and how it compares to Sony's 360 Reality Audio VME, Genelec's sustainability practices (recycled aluminum, geothermal-powered manufacturing in Finland, decades-long repairability), and where immersive audio is realistically headed for everyday listeners.

Hosted by Vince, Hugo, and Franco from SFM (a Midwich Group company).

#Genelec #ImmersiveAudio #StudioMonitors #ProAudio

Transcript

Cold Open Speaker Surgery Story

Eric 0:00

Connect up to 80 loudspeakers if you want. So you can go crazy.

Franco 0:04

If it'll be a nice Christmas gift.

Eric 0:05

That's a very nice, that's like a Christmas tree full of speakers.

Franco 0:10

I had to actually open up a Gentilex speaker once. And it was my fault because I put the speaker in a box while I was moving. And the Phoenix connector that came with a speaker in the box and transport or whatever found its way inside the base reflex bottom.

Speaker 0:25

Yeah, you can put it at the magnet. Correct.

Franco 0:28

So I had to open it up. I had to shake it. Yeah. And uh I have to say, testament to Gen Lake, very easy to disassemble and put back together, even with the seal and everything. It would happen to me, though. Do this at the home.

Eric 0:40

Yeah, exactly. Don't do that at home. Don't do that. Don't do that at home. Don't open the genetic speaker. No.

Meet Genelec In Montreal

Vince 0:58

Thank you so much for joining us on our uh on our podcast behind the rack and in studio. I think it's your first time in Montreal. It's my first time in Montreal.

Eric 1:06

It's my first time in Canada. So that's amazing.

Vince 1:08

Welcome. We've got uh a really cool episode. Um, and you're in town for a specific reason, too. As well, uh, you're doing the uh GenLic World Tour uh on Immersive Sound. We're setting up uh right now as we're filming this episode, there's a training tomorrow in Montreal. Uh Hugo and I were getting it set up, and it's very exciting. Um got so much to talk about.

Hugo 1:33

Yeah, yeah. I mean, first, thanks for coming on the show. Uh I I've been working with your technology even before joining SFM. Uh, I know your monitors as being pretty much standard in every OB truck, uh, actually in North America, I would say. Um, I love the fact that your speakers can be basically installed anywhere uh because that there's so many types of brackets for it. You can install them on the ceiling, you can install them on the ground, on the walls. I mean, I've been using your technology for years, I've seen it evolving. Um can can you talk a little bit about the intention behind your products, uh, behind the the how can I put it? Maybe the not only the intention, but the philosophy behind Genelec. I I perceive them as like engineering speakers, but there's probably something behind it. Can you elaborate a little

Genelec Philosophy And The Product Focus

Hugo 2:30

bit? Um sure.

Eric 2:31

So um the main goal when we build a speaker is to build a speaker. You know, it's not it's not following a trend. And I think that's also a core kind of principle of how Genelec and also the RD works. We want to make good speakers because we see a need for a good speaker on a monitoring system in an environment, what have you. But it's not about, oh, there's a trend that we need to pick up. So that that's a very big difference uh for us. And um, depending on the complexity of the product, this kind of RD um cycles can take even decades, you know, before we come out with with technologies. For instance, Coaxial Drivers has been a development that took way longer than many people just see with a with a product that that came to market. Um, we have a clear purpose, obviously, to um create the most truthful reproduction system to people to uh rely on. Because we know that all our customers, no matter if it's in studio, if it's in broadcast, music, post, but also in install sound environments. As you know, we can also put a speaker in a conference room or even in a restaurant or cafe. We want everybody to have the most neutral and best reproduction system possible that we then basically adapt to the environment. And uh one thing with the products is very important, they need to be adaptive, so to speak, so we can calibrate them to the certain environments where they're placed. But um, that's that's basically the logic behind. And it also happened that uh our RD department came up with speakers and presented it to the sales team, and then we were like, uh-huh. Okay, what are we doing with that? So and then they explain it, and then it totally makes sense, you know. So it's not it's the product is the star. So that's something that that counts for Genelec and and the whole development behind the curtains.

Vince 4:21

You mentioned neutral, and for our audience out there, what does that mean for you guys and why is that so important?

Eric 4:28

So neutral I would define in having a speaker or monitoring loudspeaker that is factory calibrated to be very flat on the frequency response. And that usually works, and many other loudspeaker manufacturers do that as well. Our speakers get final calibrated in an N echoic chamber, so a dead room in our factory in Finland. All of them? Every single one. From the 8010, the smallest one, to the biggest 1236, all of them. We check them all, we do multiple testings with them on the production line. It's actually when you see this, it's a it's an incredible process and an incredible complex process. Um, but we want to make sure that every speaker that is leaving our factory is is first of all working and has the best acoustic performance that we designed it for. Now, but the moment you take a speaker that has been designed to be neutral into any environment, being it a recording studio, you can throw millions of dollars into room treatment and room acoustic, which is definitely needed. But every speaker is reacting to the room, and we need to adapt this. So that's why we talk about calibration and a calibrated monitoring loudspeaker, that's what I would uh call a neutral reproduction system. Neutral in that way that when an engineer, a professional engineer, but also a consumer at home, when he listens to the quality of the sound of the loudspeakers, that he knows, okay, what I hear is actually what's been meant to be, and that I don't get too much unwanted influences from um environments that I might not be able to treat or might not be able to have under control. So that's what we mean with neutral. And then you can always tune it to your taste because taste is also very important, especially in music production, also genre-wise, electronic music guys, you know, they have to like tend to have a bit more bass here and there. Yeah, is it still neutral? Well, on the frequency level, maybe not, but it it adds like the emotional factor into it. So that's how I would put it.

Franco 6:37

I I think you used a really important word, and you said truthful before, and I I picked up on it because it's truthful for the application that the product is being used in. And to your point, if it's starting off at a really good base, and no matter what application or whoever is using it, we all know sound is extremely subjective, then you can calibrate or tune it to exactly your purpose. And I think that's the most important part, and I think that's why Gen Alex has such a good reputation is because the second it comes out of the box, everyone has the exact same response. Well, I'm hearing things I never heard before. It's because of the calibration coming from the factory and how neutral we'll use that word or truthful that speaker actually is. So I think it's a testament to the brand. And to your point as well, I think seeing the various types of applications. You know, we were talking about some Swedish producers before, uh coming from the the house and and music scene all the way to a post truck, right? These are applications that are extremely different, but that the same brand is being utilized for. And that's a testament to how it's being engineered and how it's being produced at the final stages so that it can be applied to anybody in any situation.

Vince 7:49

No.

Franco 7:49

So very interesting. Truthful, I like that word.

Vince 7:52

Truthful, yeah, laying the groundwork, and at least you know out of the box you've got a baseline that you can trust.

Eric 7:59

Yeah, that's what you're doing. It's about trust. That's right. Because whoever is working in sound, music, post, broadcast, they have to rely on something that they hear that this is going to translate to other environments. Somebody's gonna listen to the to the music in the in the in the car, or on a soundbar system, on headphones, on on a boom box. So and when you know that it has been mixed on on a calibrated general system, so you know, okay, we're safe. You know, I mean we cannot cater for a room acoustic treatment in every living room, but we know that whatever we sent there is is accurate. Absolutely.

Coaxial Drivers And The Ones Series

Hugo 8:34

You did touch on um coaxial a little bit before. Um for the for the benefit of our audience, uh, can you explain what is coaxial for GenELEC? Obviously, you're probably talking about the ones. Uh, so I'd like uh our audience to hear a little bit more about this series of speakers, which is I wouldn't say brand new, but quite new. Your newer Siri, and explain the technology behind it. Like what is coaxial?

Eric 9:02

So I I the the principle of a coaxial monitor speaker design is nothing new. It's been around for decades already, and many other brands have tried it on their own way. Yeah, like Tanoi, for example. Tanoi, and then some some also some German brands, Guitein, were doing this and so on. So coaxial by default means that all drivers of a monitoring loudspeaker are sitting on the same acoustical axis, so on the same point. That's why coaxial speakers are also sometimes referred to be point source monitors, because all drivers, base driver, mid-range, and tweeter are sitting on the same acoustical axis. Now, what we have done is we came out with a product in 2008 that was the first coaxial driver, it was the 8260, which had a 10-inch base driver and a um mid-range uh Twitter coaxial device. And um, but our kind of development dates much earlier looking into coaxial design because we know that that's the best principle you can do, the best system you can build when you do loudspeakers is coaxial. Uh, one thing we have to make people understand what the what the benefit of coaxial drivers is um you never sit still in a chair while mixing. You know, we're not at the dentist, you know, where we kind of are blocked with our head and then it's okay, now I get like all the correct mixture of all three drivers. No, we move. You know, we move on a console, we move in the room, we walk around, we're we're on the phone, you know. I mean, creative processes in the studio is not tied to my chair, is actually to the environment in the room. So every time when I move, the relative position of my ear to those three drivers is changing. I I don't I don't hear it instantly, but I mean, uh psychoacoustically, it is kind of a lot of brain work because our brain is trying to rebalance these differences all the time when I have different uh uh distances to each driver. So this you can't get rid of when you use coaxial drivers because you your relative position of the ear to the drivers is always the same, no matter where you are. So that is a good thing. So it's definitely less fatigue. This is also a good argument for people to work with coaxial speakers, especially when you have long working shifts and people in broadcast and music know that. I mean, eight, 10, 12 hours. It's kind of a regular shift these days, unfortunately. And uh it's putting a lot of load in our ear system and also in the it's a lot of brain work. But coming back to the technology in Genalex, so in 2008 we came out with the 8260. It was the first coaxial driver, and in 2015 we introduced the first model of what we call the ones series. It was the 8351A at that time, which was a a pure, true, three-way coaxial speaker. And what makes us different to other coaxial speaker manufacturers is that our drivers are built needless. So we don't have a gapless. So from the tweeter into the mid-range, from the mid-range into the base driver, there's no kind of um element that is hiding a driver. Because back in the days, there are some coaxial drivers where you had a woofer, and then in front of the woofer you had a mid-range, and in front of the mid-range, you had a tweeter. So you had kind of um your shadowing elements of that thing. Not saying that it's a bad thing, but it's causing some acoustic things. So something's happening, and we try to avoid this by building the one series to have them uh set up gapless, all these drivers. And 2015 came the first model, and uh at that time, no, latest at uh when when the when the smaller members, the 8341 and 31, came in. I was very fun happy that the marketing department decided to give a name for that series calling the ones, because it's the one at the end of the of our product code. Because people who know Genilec, we love numbers. Yeah, and this is something letters. We even have that problem also sometimes internally that we try to mix and say, Oh, yeah, it was uh a different number. I mean, there's a clear logic behind that, but there's also a very big part of exceptions. So um, actually, on the Genelec website, there's a very beautiful PDF explaining this numbering. So, why is it called 8340, for example? A P M. Yeah, it's not only numbers, it's also letters. So we throw everything that we have into the product code and hopefully. We might just put that link in the YouTube VDM. I would be very happy to see it. This is our I can train you, but this is very important to understand. And with the 8341 and 31, the smaller members, um, we introduced them in 2017 and in 2019 we basically completed that range with the 61, and we made a 51B. B stands for the basically second revision because we changed the amplifier design and the coaxial design. And uh, one thing that's also part of the one series is the the Woofer stat, which has a uh probably uh the most logical name because it's W371. So, anyways, that's uh maybe you can put a link in there to the whole line and then people can see it.

Hugo 14:13

But but that's basically when the when the line kind of found its uh and I I remember I was working at a reseller and we basically got from Jen from SFM the first gen, like the 51A. And I did put them aside like some other very high-end monitors that I was and I'm gonna name drop. I did put them aside some S S S3A's from Adam, uh, which are like pretty nice speakers too. And I was completely blown away by your system. Um, it's it it everything was there, like a it's as you truth truthful. That's the word truthful. Yeah, it's his word.

Eric 14:51

Don't look at me, it's his word. Well, it's it's a general word, so we can all keep it. Okay, we could all use it.

Hugo 14:57

And the the question that everybody has, uh including me, is we see these speakers standing up or being on the on the side like this, um, sorry, horizontal or vertical. That's a neat thing from your speakers being able to put them like in both positions, but why would I want them vertical or why would I want them uh horizontal? What's the what's the the the plus or the minus of no?

Eric 15:24

That comes back to the plus of the coaxial design because the um the directivity and the dispersion of the loudspeaker in horizontal and vertical is the same. So um imagine you have a multi-channel studio, uh let's 5.1, 7.1, Atmos, what have you, and you have a big screen in the middle. I mean, where do you put the center loudspeaker here? It it would always be an issue. So either the you see a lot of uh installations where the speaker is above the screen and then angled down. Right. You can do that, but it's it's not ideal, so to speak. But in this case, you just kind of put it on the horizontal plane and just stick it underneath the TV, for instance, or something like that. And you can also mix and match. So you can have left and right standing up and the center being laid down. There's no acoustical problem or differences. So we see that a lot. And then it is it is for economic reason. I mean, okay, wherever you have space, and I mean you mentioned Obi-Vans in the beginning. I mean, Obi-Vans by default are very kind of restricted in space. You know, this is I mean the compromise. Like the whole compromise, everything from the door, you know, to the only thing that works is basically the steering wheel. That's you can't just you can't kind of discuss this. But everything else is under discussion. And where space is very limited and ergonomics are very kind of short or you don't have much space, um, this kind of principle of loudspeaker design, especially in the smallest footprint, the 8330 one, is I mean, it's it's a gift for that. And uh, if I'm if I'm still correct, it's still the smallest 3D, uh three-way loudspeaker on the market at the moment. So and it was, I mean, it was kind of a revolution for Obi-Vans to have three-way monitors in such small space. So, and for them, it's actually good that you can put it wherever you want and don't don't look for the orientation, you know. Oh, there's a little bit of space, stick a speaker, it's gonna be that way, it doesn't matter, but just put it.

Hugo 17:16

So there's no difference having it horizontal or vertical. Okay, that's very good to know. Okay. Yeah, I'm learning so much today. That's a very good tie-in. I mean, uh the from the ones to um basically um multi-channel or immersive. I suspect that the more speakers you had, the more that coaxial is important because you multiply the source by like sometimes 9.6.1. Uh so I suspect that adding these kind of coaxial speaker really helps for the whole uh image plane or image of yes, let's call it immersive imaging of a um a multi-channel feed, right?

Eric 17:59

Definitely. And um, but one thing we also have to be clear the the coaxial design of the ones is not made for a long throw, you know? So 31, 41, 51, we would recommend maximum two and a half to three meters of listening distance to be kind of because it has a very like wide sweet spot. It's not very narrow like like other systems, you know, that can be very sharp on 10, 15, 20 meters. Um, but the 8361, so the biggest family member, we can recommend that easily to up to five meters of direct throw, of uh directivity. Uh and then you touched a point very nicely because uh for all the channels in the surround on the on the ear height, but also on the top layer and the ceiling layer, because of the fact that the ones have a very wide sweet spot, we can build a very nice dome at the end of the day due to the directivity and the dispersion of the sound. Because I mean you can use any speaker from Gen Elect to do that, but with the ones you get a much higher resolution, so to speak. And especially in surround applications, you'll it's it's it's a big difference, a very big audible difference. Yes, it's also a budget difference, I understand, but the audible difference is uh incredible.

Vince 19:13

Understand. And what is that all audible difference for uh for an audience member who let's say may or may not have that budget? What what what is that um auditory difference that they should be expecting?

Eric 19:29

It's I mean it's it's a it's a general difference between a two-way loud speaker and a three-way loud speaker. So, I mean, just by adding a discrete mid-range driver with an own amplification gives you a bit more resolution, especially in that frequency range. Not saying that two-way speakers are bad, not at all. No, but the moment you load a bit more kind of energy in that frequency uh band, uh you'll hear a clear difference between two-way and three-way loud speakers. But um, the technology of Genelec allows us because all our product lines, except the classics, so the 8000 series, I keep them out now, uh, can be calibrated. So it doesn't matter if you mix and match also the certain models, but also down to budget. So if you think, okay, I do a lot of stereo work and sometimes immersive, then I would recommend go for the ones on the left, center, and right channel and do a two-way system for the rest of the room, just to kind of complement that, being being able to kind of also juggle with a budget. If budget is a bit higher, then you can say, okay, everything on ear height, I'll go with the ones and have the top ceiling layer as a two-way. That's how I have it in my own studio, for instance. And um, so that's that's that's it's very nice because we have a lot of kind of screws to to tweak, as we say, you know, and it's like all kinds of different elements of a puzzle to really make a good monitoring system, depending on the structure.

GLM Calibration DSP And Presets

unknown 20:57

Yeah.

Franco 20:57

And Eric, when you say calibration, what does that look like? Like what is I'm I'm a new Genelec user and I've purchased myself a nice Christmas gift and I bought myself some ones. That didn't happen, but in there, hopefully. Uh what does the calibration process look like? Is it easy? How does it work?

Eric 21:14

It is, it is actually. So the thing is, um, first of all, every speaker of Gen Elect that starts with the numbers, 83, 83 something, 83, 20, 30, 40, 50, 61, 80, 81, the big ones, have built-in DSPs. Okay. So digital signal processing is built into every loudspeaker, which is capable of uh filtering the speaker. We have 20 filters per loudspeaker available. Um, there is then a uh a network that we put up to communicate with a software on the computer called GLM, the general loudspeaker manager, and we then communicate with all the DSPs of the loudspeakers. So either you're using a GLM kit, which is a USB. Device which is connected USB to the computer, and from there we're running a daisy chain Ethernet line going through all the speakers. And you can literally connect up to 80 loud speakers if you want. So you can go crazy. If it'd be a nice Christmas gift. That's a very nice, it's like a Christmas tree full of speakers, right? Um so the GLM kit is like the entry-level product, and it also comes with an own calibration microphone.

Hugo 22:25

Okay. That is matched with the basically the calibration mic is there's a serial number on it, and it's matched with the box that you I mean you can swap it.

Eric 22:34

Yeah. I mean, especially in in uh in enterprises where they have multiple GLM kits and they I mean, because the thing is the microphones we build on our own as well in Finland, and they uh we know the frequency um range of that microphone and we connect that to the serial number. So during the calibration process, we first check the serial number to make sure that we understand which microphone is connected. You really take that seriously, man. That's incredible. Then the calibration process couldn't be easier because we just hit calibrate, and what happens then is that every loudspeaker is playing a sweep. We know that. We heard that also from other systems. But what's very important with us is that the sweep is generated in the loudspeaker. So you don't need a signal generator somewhere in your studio or in your signal chain. So you don't have to have an audio connection to your loudspeaker. No sound card, no, yeah, yeah. No, you don't need that. And now imagine you're in the process of building a studio and trying to figure out what's the best placement for my loudspeakers. You don't need anything than just a laptop, the GLM kit, and one speaker, and you run it. Because then you get a clear picture of the frequency range of your loudspeaker, uncalibrated, and you know what the system would apply in terms of filtering. So this is an automatic process. We call this autocal, and this is happening actually in the cloud. So every speaker is playing a sweep, the microphone is recording that sweep and is sending that to our Genelect cloud in Finland. There we analyze basically the frequency response, we set the filters and send them back into the loudspeaker or into your computer, which is communicating with the loudspeaker. So the goal is to give you a very truthful, neutral um frequency response of a loudspeaker, knowing that we might have issues in the room. And these will be visible because in GLM we can instantly see the graphs of the loudspeaker, instantly. So the the the the impulse response, like the frequency response uh uncalibrated, we see the filter set and we see the result uh in in colors. So red is the frequency response uncalibrated, blue is the filters, which are usually uh kind of inverted, you know, to reduce energy, that is to eye. And then the green will be the result. But in calibration, what we also do is not only the frequency response, which this is, I mean, this is probably the most crucial one, but what we also do, especially when it becomes immersive, and we're gonna touch base on that later, is um delay because every speaker has a there's a different position, a distance to the listening position, and uh volume compensation. As I said, we could use uh like big the ones monitors in the front and then small two-ways in the rest of the room. Right. So they all have a different system volume and they are all placed on different uh directions, and we do a volume calibration that we make sure that every speaker is reaching the listening position at the same volume and at the same time, plus as flat as possible. But this has so many influences room design things. But when that is the case, then the spatial image works because we're not distracted by oh, that speaker is a bit louder, so our kind of focus is going that way or going this way, or this one's too close and it's too early. So everything that is immersive needs to be calibrated with these three topics. And um, in stereo, you can work with frequency calibration alone, should be enough because there should not be any volume difference or delay difference. Right. So, but that's basically how it works.

Franco 26:15

And then that calibration is uh just so that I understand, I don't have a lot of experience in production. That calibration file or setup, if you want to call it, is then sent to the speaker individually, correct?

Hugo 26:26

There's two ways you can I'm I'm I'm gonna interject here, but you can have it in the software that runs on your computer, or if you don't plan to have GLM running on your computer and you will basically run it with your own monitoring, yeah, you can put all the curves in the speakers themselves and disconnect the GLM software.

Franco 26:45

That was my point. You don't necessarily need to have the software running at all times. Correct. Because depending on your monitoring system or your production process, it could be stored locally either in the speakers, or if you're renting out the studio, for example, and you want one calibration for that room and you have different people coming in, you can save it to the speakers or you run it through GLM.

Eric 27:04

Exactly. Very cool. But especially think of like educational facilities, schools, stuff like this. You don't want every student to be kind of the calibration DJ, to speak, you know. So you I would recommend you you store it into the loudspeaker, you disconnect everything, and then they come with various playback systems because one thing is very important to understand with the GLM calibration, because the calibration and the filtering is happening in the loudspeaker, which is the last bit of my signal chain, I can do whatever playback system I want, and I will always reach a calibrated system. So today I might have the studio booked to somebody who's using my studio computer for, so to speak. Easy. The next day is somebody coming in with a laptop. No problem. You connect, but you run on a calibrated speaker via Dante or what have you. Next day, somebody's coming with a phone and streaming on AirPlay into my monitoring system. You reach calibrated loudspeakers. There's no need to go through a box or a software or something, a plugin to turn on and off, you know, depending on that. So I think that is a very important topic. Um because what we want is, or what we don't want, is actually load the engineer with even more stuff to think about. They have they have plenty to do. Of course. You know, console, uh recording machine, recording sound design, what have you. So the monitoring is the last thing we want them to think about. Oh, am I in the right state? Do I have the right preset? Do I have this? Do I have that? No. Store it in the loudspeaker if you want, set and forget, and then your truthful sound reproduction system is ready for you. Very cool. Yeah.

Hugo 28:38

And the thing is that you can also, if ever you feel, because I have a colleague who felt that there was not enough bass after calibration, so we ended up just boosting a little bit the low mids because you wanted more bass. But it's still open to you if you want to mess around with it. I'm not recommending it unless you know what you're doing, right? But you can have access to this curve in the software if you want to modify it. You really want to fine-tune and really make it. Okay, very cool. Okay.

Eric 29:03

But that's actually a very good point because when you have the GLM software connected to your loud speakers all the time, we can actually store what we call groups in the software, which could be like calibration presets. And we can create, yeah, we can create up to 10 of these groups. So you could say, I want to have at the listening position, at the main engineer position, a very flat situation. Okay, no problem. I do group number one. Now, one thing is in every studio you have a producer couch in the rear, where they work or sleep or what have you. Eat, chill, make phone calls. Phone call. Exactly. But these poor people are always sitting in the bad base wave because all the energy is loaded at the rear wall. Right. So you put the microphone there, do a calibration at that spot, and save it as, I say, couch preset. And then during your you just switch instantly between the calibration presets as you go. I mean people in in the studios understand that you know that every time when you get a comment from the rear couch, say, Oh, it's a bit too boomy. So come here, come here where I sit, listen here, and they're like, and then nobody wants to come and say, Okay, it's fine. Now you just switch, flip a switch, you know, switch to a button, and then like you're happy? Okay, cool. Switch back to your mixer engine, mix uh mixer spot, and then you continue. Or last example, and there's tons of examples, but last one I'll say in a music recording environment, you know, you have, I don't know, a keyboard player coming in, and you have your synth on the on the on the left side wall or something. So whenever he's playing the synth, he's never in the sweet spot. This poor keyboard player. So what you could do is put the microphone there, at least it's kind of getting the the frequency response correct for a spot that is not in the sweet spot and gives him like the confidence, okay, what I'm playing, I can really judge what I hear, knowing that it's not the sweet spot. Right, you know, and these kind of things. So you can fiddle around very creatively. And this is this is actually a big sales tool for us because a lot of people really embrace this. Oh wow, that's that's a feature. I didn't know we can do that. Because normally when you think about calibrating a loudspeaker, it's like, okay, I have to have a complex system and then store it and then don't touch. No, no, you could if you want. But as I said, for some, it is better to store it into the loudspeaker and set and forget. But for others who are in a creative work environment, it is actually good to have it connected and and use it in your workflow.

9320 Control Room Headphone Binaural

Hugo 31:34

Very interesting. Yep. And what he was saying about the GLM kit uh that that ties in with this box that's on the table here, the 9320. This is also a GLM kit with much more features. Correct. Including the fact that, and I'd like you to talk about it a little bit, the fact that you can mimic, I don't know if mimics the right word, but you can listen to an atmosphere in those headphones if they're connected to your 9320. Can you elaborate a little bit?

Eric 32:05

Uh yes, you can. But first of all, the 9320 is actually a full-blown monitor controller. True. It's yeah, and a GLM remote control, so to speak. A controller also for the GLM software. We didn't have it back in the day, so everything that you wanted to do, switching the groups, for instance, you know, your your calibration cubes. We have now dedicated buttons on that on the on the bottom right, which are called group one to four. Yeah, we have four buttons, but you can have ten in the system and you can arrange it. Um, but that system is also a stereo uh interface. Actually, we call it outer face because there's no input back to the computer. So all the inputs on that box are only available in the monitoring system. So I can make a source audible. But I have but um, I don't I cannot feed uh uh let's say a microphone back to my computer to recording. That's not an interface, so that's why we thought it's an outer face. Anyway, um long story short, when you want to hear your immersive mix on headphones, before you can connect your your headphone here, we have to do something that we call a binauralization. Because uh there's no point in just listening to the left and right channel of an immersive mix. You can do that because headphones are stereo. And the the headphone uh amplifier on that box is actually of very high quality, so that sounds very, very good. But before that, before you can make an immersive mix audible on headphones, you have to binauralize it. There are multiple tools available on the market to do that. There's an own one from Dolby and the Dolby renderer and what have you. But Genelec wouldn't be Gen Alec if we not also have a binaural mineralization available as uh as of like two two weeks ago. We actually launched it in the new version 2.0, uh 2.1. Sorry, we call it uh oral ID. This has been around for a couple of years, and I would call it it has been a proof of concept, but now the concept is proven. That's why we come up with a version 2.1 now. And uh oral ID is a very interesting technology because binaural, just to make understand what binaural means, binaural is basically a virtualized down mix of an immersive soundtrack, which could be a 7.1.4 Atmos mix or bigger, but we have to make it work on just two channels for a headphone that your brain thinks, oh, there's a sound in front of me, there's a sound behind me, above me. Left and right is easy because we have the ear cups left and right. But every other location and direction is kind of very in uh difficult to transport through a headphone system. So that's why a binauralization is happening before it takes the immersive mix into the system and is then helping to transcode it into two channels with filtering, delay, and very different processes. So your brain actually thinks something's happening from the left, from the right, from front, from rear. Now, our hearing system is something very, very personal because we all for here have very different shapes of ear, of head, of neck, of chin, of everything, of shoulders, which is very crucial for uh human hearing to better interpret and understand where the sound actually comes from. We're so used to it because our ears are trained to surround sound, but now listening on headphones, it's very different. So that's why there's a process between the mix on speakers and the reproduction on headphones that we have to implement is a is a something that we call HRTFs. And HRTF stands for head related transfer function. It is basically a mathematical process of describing how a human is hearing 3D sound, and in order to do that, we have to capture a couple of um pictures, I suspect pictures and videos and many different things just to understand what is actually the head shape. And um in uh with Genilec and the oral ID technology, we have a little uh iPhone and Android app that you can use, and somebody needs to film you with a distance of 1.5 meters around you, very small, and the app is actually guiding you very nicely. So do this, do that, put out the lights, go close to the ear. And we're filming the ear very nicely and very, very kind of deeply, so to understand every little bone and knuckle of the ear, because that is how we hear sound, and it's very, very different from person to person. Wow. And we also provide two photos, two pictures with a with a uh with a scale, so we know how large is your ear, and then we build a 3D model of your upper torso in a computer system, and this uh 3D model is then getting um kind of I I don't know the right English word. Virtualized. No, but yeah, well, it is virtualized, but then we are putting up 836 locations around that 3D model and are sending basically sound to it. Um, you have to understand the way how HRTFs have been created back in the days is people were sitting super still on a chair with microphones in the ear, and then you had a big ring around you on speakers that was actually moving and all the time sweeping around you, because what our hearing is kind of expecting is direction sound from all kinds of locations around you. And this is what we try with a with a 3D render of the picture of the of the of the upper torso of the person, of the listener, and are presenting 836 sound sources around it, and all these recordings and all this mathematical um voodoo, it's not voodoo, but just to kind of make a long story short, uh magic is a good word, yeah? Complex magic, truthful complex magic, is it's actually been then presented into a little file, and this is what we call a sofa file. And the sofa file has basically all the information about this person's hearing system, so to speak, and localization um capabilities, and we ingest this into the playback system. Wow. So now just to come back to the beginning, we have an Atmos mix coming into the system, it gets binauralized. We have the sofa file sitting there, which is our own HRTF, and that's the binaural version we then get presented on headphones. Well, it's kind of a complex thing. So I've tried to make it short. Uh but if you're interested, uh maybe we can link it uh in the podcast to the OL ID page.

Hugo 38:56

Is this all process like comes free when you bot when you buy this, or there's a price to the oral ID?

Speaker 5 39:02

Yeah, that's it again.

Hugo 39:03

That's a little that's okay if there's a price. There is a little price.

Eric 39:05

Because it doesn't seem to be a very complex process. It is. It is. But we have various models. We have it as a as a subscription, so if you just want to try it out, but we also have it as a perpetual license. I think in in in um unfortunately, well, unfortunately, it's only on the web shop. It's not over the distribution channels, obviously. Fair enough. Um, but that's fine. I mean, this is uh still enough value as uh for the for the channel. Um it's uh 375 euros uh for a perpetual license. And what is also interesting, you can also get the sofa file and use it in other applications that support a sofa file import. Yeah, you know, because I mean our oral ID software is just one of the solutions available. There are some others who might have a different flavor. Fair enough. I mean, it's a lot of kids on that playground, so to speak. But our sofa file you can also ingest into other uh systems.

Hugo 39:55

Would it be compatible with the Sony, because Sony VMC, I think.

Eric 40:00

No, it's not because they they are working with an own uh measurement. Okay.

Hugo 40:05

So um yours is a little bit more um, I would say, compatible or a little bit more like out there. The sofa file.

Eric 40:15

Yeah, well, the sofa file is just one thing, but I think there's a very clear difference, and I think it's good that you mentioned the Sony solution, the VME, the virtual mixing environment, is actually based on the fact that they capture you as a as a mix engineer in a in a space, true, in a in a room, in a studio that you know, which is good, which total also makes sense. On the other hand, one thing that is very important to Genelec, and this kind of comes back to the way how we calibrate speakers, what we want, we want to try to reduce room influences as much as possible, excuse me, to get to the core of the sound. And we work similarly with the oral ID situation because a lot of uh many other situations and solutions put you into a virtual room. I understand this because people also need room response to work. But what we try is we put you in a clear room, you know, in a neutral room without any kind of room influences. That's the approach for oral ID. So it is very different. And understand, so there are fans of both camps.

Hugo 41:21

It's basically the continuation of your philosophy in exactly in like binaural slash delby atmosphere. Correct.

Eric 41:28

So Eric, excuse me. Sorry, also stereo. You know, binaural doesn't mean that it has to be multi-channel, it can also be binaural stereo. Because one thing, just to add, um the process of binauralization has nothing to do with complexity of your reproduction system. It could even mono, it could even be mono. But one thing that happens in binauralization is very important, it's actually externalization. Because when you listen on headphones, you have it left and right of you. But what you hear left and right has not been designed with two speakers that are left and right of you. They are actually in front of you.

Vince 42:00

Yeah. Right.

Eric 42:01

So what we do with the binauralization is actually we externalize the sound sources and represent a virtual speaker system. It might be people might have to get used to this. In immersive, it's much easier to tell the story because people are used to binaural situations for immersive. But for stereo, we are so used in listening to a mix that has been built with two speakers in front of us, and we're listening to them with them now next to us, which is by default completely wrong.

Hugo 42:32

So there would be a benefit of using your oral ID solution for stereo mixing too.

Eric 42:39

Exactly, exactly. Because it makes you it it it puts you into the position that you can actually mix anywhere, some way.

Hugo 42:47

Really? Because you can bring that, it's it's USB-C powered. You put the headphones in, you're in your room. You're in your basic bedroom.

Eric 42:56

Virtual room. Yeah. And then you move back to your trusted general loudspeakers, and you know where you are. You're in the ballpark. We will never say you can replace monitoring with headphones. That's that's by default wrong. But it would not be good for your business neither. No, it's not. Definitely not. But we we're I mean, we're safe with that. Yeah, because we know that uh we want to give people the chance to monitor accurately, truthful, when they're not in the studio or when they cannot be in the studio. Right. Musicians on the road. Um, I mean, you you know it better than me, so many occasions where people need to have headphone monitoring. Yeah. But making that as accurate as possible, that's the goal.

Where Immersive Audio Is Headed

Franco 43:36

Yeah. So do you think now with all these advancements in monitoring and binary, uh we touched on immersive, and I think we should get you know more in depth about immersive. My thing is always like as a consumer, and and these two gentlemen here are a lot more techy than I am, more on the on the business side, but as a consumer, what is this mean for me? Like, do you do you truthfully believe that with I I mean just talking talking about the OR ID and all that, it's incredible. Like no one would think that there's that much effort or emphasis put in to understand the real way that an individual is capturing sound with their own earlobes. I like the way you put it with every little knuckle and everything. And it's true everyone hears things differently. But do you think as a consumer we're going to be seeing the impacts of all this advancement of technology? Like even just immersive now we you know when we talk about AirPods and whatever it may be immersive is a word that's being used a lot to different people that has different definitions. But we're starting to see it be a little bit more accepted on a consumer level. Where do you think this is going to bring us what's your your opinion on that?

Eric 44:47

How much time do we have? It's a long topic. No the thing is I I I mean I'm a big fan of immersive I mean I have a long track record immersive in immersive audio. I actually I work in that field for since 2012. So I have my own uh uh thinking and um when you look at younger generations they get exposed to immersive audio and immersive video and VR and what have you um early VR exactly right away right away. So for them it is basically the new stereo you know that's yeah it it's it's becoming a standard for younger generations. So we old men have to keep up with that and still think oh yeah stereo was that thing and now it's something new. For many people it's actually not new it's it is their standard and it's becoming their standard and also when you see that on the consumer side of things so many systems are coming up that are playing back immersive content instantly. I mean look at all the the the automotive development these days you know with Dolby Atmos in car and stuff I mean so many brands have embraced this and implemented into cars which totally makes sense because in my opinion it's the second best room after the studio you know we have clear location we have clear boundaries people are not moving around we know the seats so you can tailor this and calibrate this very nicely every soundbar every TV every phone every smart speaker is capable of playing back immersive audio content.

Vince 46:17

So I really hope that it's becoming the new standard I also understand there's a lot of applications where it doesn't make any sense I mean there's no point to have the um the 80s podcast I think our podcast in the Atmos wouldn't make sense I don't know Hugo would be pretty no no no right that's not true sorry so okay that's definitely not true open for debate then so the thing is because podcast nobody's defining what's the content of the podcast true you know and a podcast could actually be a complete like radio drama a full blown true episode of a science fiction sounds game so podcasts also exist in in immersive so but yeah maybe the tech talk you know the right the nerds talk in immersive I mean you're right because I you're right I I have listened to podcasts in Dolby Atmos and they were more of a uh a drama okay yeah exactly now this is more like a news piece you know a news broadcast you know the eight o'clock news there are clearly you know depending on who's taking it exactly yeah so uh but but um one thing that's also important why I think people have to really now get on speed with immersive audio especially in the audio engineering side and it doesn't matter if it's broadcast post or music is um the the the applications are becoming limitless for immersive audio as I just said I mean every every application is using immersive audio and when you then now look also into live environments you know concerts uh museums uh all kind of uh so to speak immersive experiences whatever that could be but all these situations are embracing immersive audio technologies these days crazily uh Broadway musical theaters you know I mean uh the the sphere in Las Vegas biggest example for for an immersive uh dome massive um so that's why uh working today in immersive audio on in small scale can lead to many different things in the future and especially for audio engineers um start learning it now because it's becoming relevant and the thing is with the modern times these days we are so impatient you know I say oh uh immersive audio is out for two years why isn't that the standard and it's been available everywhere now imagine how long it took for mono to stereo yeah true and from stereo to immersive 60 years so we're good we have we have enough time you know but make it right so we are just because modern times uh teach us to be impatient by default because times are so because everything's changing so quickly with social media and everything uh not talking about geopolitics but um you know what I mean so hey we're still good you know we we're still kind of building the railroad yeah so but I I like what you said about how the newer generation immersive will be their stereo and it's true and and there are instances now that I think back where I'm like oh yeah that was immersive or that was and you know and I think the consumer from the compute uh consumer standpoint I think people are just not educated about immersive that they don't even realize that maybe what they're listening to was produced in immersive I agree with that I agree with that I think there needs to be like a call out like this is being yeah and to your point like we we have this and I I I'm still on the fence about your your uh your uh your uh thought process behind the new generation with immersive I have this conversation with these guys all the time it's uh a lot of the new generation um don't care about home theaters anymore uh watch all their video content you know like uh Hugo and I Hugo takes the time to look at the sound I take I I make sure that the podcasts are color corrected and and all through the color gamut and rec 2020 or whatever and then these guys are either watching it on their vivid uh vivid whatever color platform uh um profile goes on their TV or their their mobile phone on speaker on the metro yeah exactly and then and then if if you're looking for a sound bar people are not looking they're just gonna pick out a soundbar and whether they like it or not just like in the most home theater receivers today even the entry levels now have Dolby Atmos a lot of people are not looking for a Dolby Atmos thing I I think even some people today from my past life were just like it just gave me a 7.1 5.1 they're like well do you realize you're getting a lot more of that with the receiver that you are and you have the option to switch over from that five channel to Atmos I think that's where I think people are will especially on the sound bar they will experience it whether regardless if they like it or not because they're not even aware of sometimes but that's the thing they might not even be aware that what they're listening to is immersive yeah and how much work went into it.

Eric 51:09

Exactly but does it matter that's the only I mean still I mean our goal is to create the best possible experience for the end customer. And sometimes it might be interesting to tell them look this is what you hear now but on the other hand when they're happy with it and continue consuming I mean job done. That's a very good perspective as well. That's why um I'm I'm super relaxed with this and people are very impatient saying ah Dolby you know it's do more more more we have to tell the world yeah but I mean it's it's coming in anyway so if we want it or not you know it's like with AI. Nobody asked for it but it's here. It's true. So I mean it might be very weird but you know so you have a very good point. That's um I mean sometimes it's not about and customers especially non-trained listeners so to speak we are all nerds. We know exactly what we hear and we want to know what we hear. Yeah that's I mean that's also our job some way but a lot of people hear stuff and they will judge by continuing that episode and skipping this episode. And they will also have it like subconsciously also down to the sound quality. When you hear very bad sound but you have great picture then it'll it's gonna be bad anyways. It exactly it's gonna end with a with a with a with a with a um kind of with a with a facit say people say yeah it was okay but they cannot verbalize that it was down to a bad sound. But when they experience good sound they can correct you know they can say oh this was great mix and a great sound and the vocal I I understood the vocals you know or the dialogue. I mean this is mainly in TV the thing.

Franco 52:46

I mean in English language not so difficult but German language is like you know um uh every Sunday evening there is like um uh you know a um a series episode in German TV and two minutes after the start the kind of the phone rings at the broadcast saying I can't hear the dialogue so that's you know that's and this is this is going to change and immersive also helps with that you know having interactive possibilities uh built into next gen audio nga what they call it but um so I think I'm I'm super easy with that so people will judge by watching or skipping and people don't know until they know right yeah like I tell everyone until you've heard a pair of genalike monitors you don't know what you're missing out and people who have a trained ear or whatever it may be or think they have a trained ear you put them in front of a you know a proper immersive setup a real immersive setup are you in a proper stereo setup with proper monitors yeah people are blown away like I have industry friends that you know might not be as nerdy or as technical as I am or as we are and then you put them in front of Genilex and they're like wow I've never heard a song that song played like that before. And to see that reaction from people and then you just kind of see the domino effect where it's like yeah maybe I'm not going to use those little speakers anymore. I think hey Franco I think it's time to upgrade my speakers what can we do you know and and that's what's important is about educating people and making them realize okay there's better sound out there because there's speakers and sound everywhere today to know from little headphones to little devices making people realize look to your point appreciate proper speakers a proper setup and some people take it for granted and that's okay because they're not interested in it but I it's amazing to see how far we've come

Sustainability Repairability And Recycled Aluminum

Franco 54:31

regardless.

Hugo 54:31

Yeah but before we finish uh we typically finish with uh a rapid fire questions we have a couple for you but um I would like to touch on sustainability because I believe it's something very important for Genelec. It's part of their philosophy. If you if you can talk a little bit about where sustainability is tied into your processes inside the company without it compromising the rest of the quality the truthful yeah the truthful sound actually sustainability is um within Genelec it's one of the core principles of the foundation of this whole company.

Eric 55:09

The reason why our factory is located where it actually is so it's not in Helsinki like everybody would assume in Finland you go to the to uh you know the capital we have a big port and a big airport and then you get your goods out. No at that time um the founders actually decided to go back where they come from you know to give back something also to the to the people living there and uh create a workspace for the local community in an in an area of Finland that could be considered not really underdeveloped but it's not it's not the hot spot of of the country where where where the Genelec factory is so that was number one. Second thing is I mean sustainability in terms of um using resources so we manufacture all loudspeakers by hand in Finland. Everything is made in Finland of course we do get little kind of electronic components from far east but these are very lightweight so that is it's not putting a lot of like um carbon footprint on the product itself by just bringing them to Finland. So all the enclosures of our loudspeakers it's die cast aluminium and this aluminium is 97% recycled aluminium. So those were drinking cans back in the days. Now one could say hey have a beer for your next speakers you know but it's not not as easy. But anyways and the supplier of the of all our kind of enclosures is located a very short distance to the factory so what we're looking at is to kind of have the radius around the factory as short as possible to source components that we cannot build on our own. But on the other hand we build everything by hand in Finland so by hand but we also have big like machines where we do all the PCB boards we build all the amplifiers we build uh a big part of the drivers ourselves and the ones that we source is actually nearby it's all Finland. So wooden enclosures of our wooden products they come they also might come from Norway or from Sweden but it's it's fairly close when you look at at how to how to source actually all these things. And then when you open a Genelect speaker one day because it's time for the speaker to go and leave then we have an indication on every component there how to recycle it. So let's say when you have the base reflex port in the loudspeaker there is a there is an indicator on it this is the the the the the material and this is how you should actually recycle it you know so you understand yeah that's that's what we do for many many many years. Wow and then I mean all the processes of logistics of course of uh administration of production of RD we scan every process that we have on the carbon footprint and the the like sustainable um kind of load or pressure and um next to kind of having like you know uh how do you call it like uh heating from the ground how's it called uh geothermal geothermal heating and solar panels that's let's that's the easy thing but uh yeah but I mean yeah that's that's I mean for for many people it's not but for right the easy thing but it's amazing it is um we also have like all kinds of sustainability certifications that actually are needed because we truly believe um that also for the end customer it's becoming more and more relevant. In the EU for instance there are new rules coming up soon for public broadcasters they they have to understand what are their freelancers actually sourcing and they have to provide a a carbon footprint of their work and they have to understand what kind of technology are they using. So it's becoming more and more important in the future for people when they choose a certain brand for their task that they have to scan for these kind of certificates and look out for sustainable measurements. And this is putting us back on a in a very good position but not greenwashed because actually we live and breathe that every day.

Vince 59:04

Pretty good very impressive a lot of those things.

Eric 59:08

No I would have just chucked the speaker in the garbage 100% take the base reflux pot here the reason the reason why we don't know is because we never had to open a speaker there I was going to say you never threw out a job never threw you know I I know guys are who are still using the 11 is this the 67 like the the wooden box uh you know the one of the speakers that made you guys popular uh the 1030 10 sorry 1030 yeah 1030 and 1031 i i have some friends who are still using them in their studio we have we have still systems from 1978 in the market that are working like a charm and if they break we can repair it because we have spare butts that is also a sustainable measure you know and you will very rarely find Genelec in a trade in program because why should we trade in a speaker that is fully functional? Use it somewhere else yeah or sell it on eBay or do whatever you want with that speaker. Just buy new that's fine but uh there's no need to trade in as long as it works. Right. So keep it keep it working just that's really cool.

Franco 1:00:11

Funny story just quick story I had to actually open up a Genolex speaker once and it was my fault because I put the speaker in a box while I was moving and the Phoenix connector that came with a speaker in the box and transport whatever found its way inside the base reflex bulb yeah you'll find it at the magnet then correct so I had to open it up and I had to shake it and yeah and uh I have to say testament to Gentile very easy to disassemble and put back together even with the seal and everything. And I was impressed even with the construction inside the speaker. I think a lot of people don't talk about that or even look inside a Genelex speaker but it was impressive to see the insulation and all that and it was just anyways. But we should we should it would happen to me though it happened to do this at the home yeah it's not don't do that at home don't do that don't do that at home don't open a Gen Elix speaker. No actually I I did bring it here for full transparency.

Rapid Fire Picks And Training Plug

Eric 1:01:01

We got it here Homer helped me out we looked at it he's like yeah it's easy let's do it we have time for rapid fire uh you you start I know go go go go for it go for it um we have two or three questions uh that needs to be answered by a short a short answer um so one album or recur or recording you'd like to use uh to demo immersive to a skeptic my own playlist yeah but what's on it on my playlist are uh mainly my mixes oh okay of course no um many many many various things um basically everything from from Morton Lindbergh from Morton Lindbergh no you know what forget it you take one one Canadian production it's called Immersed by Justin Gray yeah I know this guy very cool um this guy's from Toronto he's a teacher at uh music school and he mixed in at most for he's been mixing mixing in atmos for years if only there was an immersive setup already set up somewhere that I could listen to this on yeah there's one here one immersive trend do you think is overrated time's running out um I don't know sorry an immersive trend that is overrated that you think is overrated I think is overrated is uh immersive video that's it could that could be audio could be video and the last one Franco you have it or you want one room you wish you could redesign um the Genelec auditorium in our factory good answer that's funny greetings to Finland don't get me wrong but it's it's time again sound subjective right yeah everyone has an opinion on sound and that's that's okay well that was a great episode yeah um thanks a lot for for your time thanks for having me thank you thank you we'd love to have you back that's for sure by the way we we we are set up we can do uh remote also interviews so you'll be back on it I'm pretty sure yeah we even have Steen in the uh in the shadows but uh maybe we can have uh uh a a larger again we we didn't even we have so many yeah there's just so much to talk about and uh and so little time and it goes and if time flies guys so and just maybe very quickly I think it's important to plug what we're doing here and we spoke about it a little bit but tomorrow we're doing an immersive training at SFM obviously by the time this episode's up uh already passed but I think it's important to know to always keep an eye out for some of these trainings that are available through SFM and Janilec and you guys are doing a world tour if I'm correct or you guys are doing multiple locations right now correct but ours going to be the training you're gonna give it tomorrow is going to be on uh YouTube on on SFM's YouTube uh probably the two sessions we'll see yeah uh within weeks so stay tuned for that too yeah amazing exactly if you if you couldn't attend uh actually it's gonna be our first in-person and live session which is gonna be really uh interesting but if you missed it um it'll be on YouTube in a couple of weeks and by the way I'm not sure we should say that I don't want to jinx anything but we plan on having a binaural mix on YouTube.

Hugo 1:04:23

Let's see how it goes but we're gonna record a binaural mix of this so it's no problem to do that.

Franco 1:04:28

And now no pressure on Hugo but this episode better be mixed and immersive thanks a lot yeah thank you Eric we appreciate you coming out thank you